Talk:Tree Magic
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This is a first for this wki, an article not written by The Designer, but rather by loki, at least initially. The Designer has set up the article skeleton, and loki will be working from a short but fairly coplete MS Word document written (by The Designer) some years ago, on Tree Magic. A wikifikation process almost cannot avoid changing the material being wikified, sometimes elaborating and making the material more flexible by adding more options, or generalizing it, and in other cases simplifying (hopefully losslessly or nearly so). The only instruction given to loki is to implement a "picks" system or Tree Magic Levels system, instead of stating the Essence cost of each option directly, as was done in the original MS Word document.--Peter Knutsen (the Designer) 19:47, 3 December 2010 (UTC)
- I've now added a table structure/skeleton at the bottom of the article, that loki can expand and adapt to suit this article. From now on I'll leave him to it (from what he wrote to me yesterday, it migh be a couple of weeks before he has the time to start this project).--Peter Knutsen (the Designer) 06:42, 4 December 2010 (UTC)
- Ok, I've started adding a little bit of structure to the article. I will probably just use basic text at the beginning to put in most of the information and data I need, then I'll change some of it to tables in order to improve readability. I've re-read the original Tree Magic doc, and I agree that the full topic will probably be split over different articles. The first one, this one, covering the rationales, the mechanical aspects (how to compute costs and growth times, what steps need to be taken and the main effects that can be put in. A second article will cover the Enhanced Bloodlines effects and (probably) a third one will cover the Aura effects, especially if you mean to expand on it.
- I'll start stating the principles behind the different costing/timing schemes and then I'll provide tables where those are needed to increase the overall readability and make it easier for the player to figure out the final costs/times without excessive calculations. For those precalculated tables I'll be using 12 moons to a year and 30 days to a moon as conversion factors. -- Loki 6 December 2010
- Actually, 1 Moon is exactly 28 Days (4 Weeks of 7 Days each), and 1 Year is almost exactly 13 Moons. Where are your figures of 12 and 30 coming from? Also, it's standard nomenclature to capitalize Time Interval terms to make clear they're precise game-mechanical distinctions. Other than that you're doing fine, but do you know how to create new articles? (I agree with separating Aura effects out into its own article, like I suggested you do with Bloodline effects, and since Aura effects will probably be very similar to Domain Magic, I better get my ass in gear and resume working on those articles.)
- It was standard business practice. I didn't know your conversion factors. Now I will be obviosuly using the ones you gave me. I've just started putting in the most obvious stuff. It will probably take me some time, both because I'm not very used to wiki and because I keep mixing up Sagatafl and OMNIA in my head :) I do think, though, that a specific Advantage/Power/Enhancer/Lore is needed to modify the standard conversion factor of 1 Tree Level = 0.2 Essence (I used this since almost all of your costing schemes were based on multiples of 0.2ES, with picks for EBL and discounted Prepare rituals being the only exceptions). Otherwise it's just pointless to use levels/picks instead of Essence directly. It's not like they're tallied all at once and then some non-linear formula is applied to the total (like in Contacts or House) in order to prevent/encourage excessive choices. They're just used pretty much one at a time, for every Ritual. So the conversion Levels-ES should be either based on the Character's scores (somehow) or be modifiable via Advantages (or both, maybe). - Loki, 7 December 2010.
- Well, understanding the Time Step Scales, TSS, is fairly important; hopefully you'll find them easy to internalize, since that's why they are as they are. As for Tree Levels, you're correct that I'm not looking for non-linear costs. The idea is that the base Essence cost per TL is 0.2 ES, but that some characters may get a discount on all TLs in some (specific tree species, or in a Domain) or all cases - I think that is more elegant than a general usage of giving "free" levels, although in a few cases given one or two free levels may be good. Secondly, when Spells are cast, each Spell level gives a maximum number of Tree Levels, and you have to compete a given process by casting one Spell, i.e. if the 4th level Spell gives 5 Tree Levels and the 5th level spell gives 7 Tree Levels, and you desire a combination of effects from the Sentience/Spech subsection, that costs a total of 6 Tree Levels, then you cannot do it by casting the 4th level spell twice; you're forced to cast a spell of a sufficiently high enough level (but you pay only the ES for the Tree Levels used). This also suggests that Tree Magic effects should be categorized into a small number of effect types that are related to each other, and which each require one casting of the Spell (which is the same spell sub-Realm in all cases, e.g. Enchant Tree I to Enchant Tree IV). Sentience/Speech could be one such category, Aura effects another, Bloodline effects a third. HEalth/Life might be too narrow, but then again if magic fruits are thrown in it would be better. Still, you're doing a fine job, so far, and I'll try my best not to interfere, but do ask if you are unsure about something. --Peter Knutsen (the Designer) 14:30, 7 December 2010 (UTC)
- Well you're not interfering at all; actually now I think I have a better overall picture. I hadn't figured out that the various spells would be upgraded version of a given spell, each of which would give more Tree Levels to play with. Though, I admit, I should have suspected as much, since I seem to remember you doing something along those lines for Illusion spells. Still OMNIA and Sagatafl will probably be very different in this regard, that's why I missed it. Mmhh ok, now that I have a slightly clearer view, I should be able to be a bit more incisive in my work. Actually organizing stuff as you suggested (Sentience, Aura, ...) makes a lot of sense, exp if each effect requires a specific casting of a Spell to be worked into the tree. As far as the TSS, again that was due to OMNIA being slightly different (progression is 1 day, 3 days, 1 week, 1 month). Oh, by the way... I'm just making up names along the way (Tree Level, TreeBrother). It's just cleaner than (Placeholder 1), (Placeholder 2), ... Obviously change them as you see fit.
- I think the names are fine; Even TL for Tree Level might be fine. I think there should be at least four ways to Enchant a Tree. Via the Lore, which is probably the least efficient, but most flexible and most accessible. Via the one "ladder" or "sub-Realm" of Plant Magic Spells (probably SL3 Enchant Tree I to SL6 Enchant Tree IV), one magical Power that lets one do it, and one Lunar Power that also lets one do it, with both Powers being fairly flexible, but of course dependent upon the character being born with that Power (all Powers are inborn, in Sagatafl). Then with a third Power, your TreeBrother, as a nice bonus that gives an ES discount regardless of method. --Peter Knutsen (the Designer) 18:46, 7 December 2010 (UTC)
- Well you're not interfering at all; actually now I think I have a better overall picture. I hadn't figured out that the various spells would be upgraded version of a given spell, each of which would give more Tree Levels to play with. Though, I admit, I should have suspected as much, since I seem to remember you doing something along those lines for Illusion spells. Still OMNIA and Sagatafl will probably be very different in this regard, that's why I missed it. Mmhh ok, now that I have a slightly clearer view, I should be able to be a bit more incisive in my work. Actually organizing stuff as you suggested (Sentience, Aura, ...) makes a lot of sense, exp if each effect requires a specific casting of a Spell to be worked into the tree. As far as the TSS, again that was due to OMNIA being slightly different (progression is 1 day, 3 days, 1 week, 1 month). Oh, by the way... I'm just making up names along the way (Tree Level, TreeBrother). It's just cleaner than (Placeholder 1), (Placeholder 2), ... Obviously change them as you see fit.
- Well, understanding the Time Step Scales, TSS, is fairly important; hopefully you'll find them easy to internalize, since that's why they are as they are. As for Tree Levels, you're correct that I'm not looking for non-linear costs. The idea is that the base Essence cost per TL is 0.2 ES, but that some characters may get a discount on all TLs in some (specific tree species, or in a Domain) or all cases - I think that is more elegant than a general usage of giving "free" levels, although in a few cases given one or two free levels may be good. Secondly, when Spells are cast, each Spell level gives a maximum number of Tree Levels, and you have to compete a given process by casting one Spell, i.e. if the 4th level Spell gives 5 Tree Levels and the 5th level spell gives 7 Tree Levels, and you desire a combination of effects from the Sentience/Spech subsection, that costs a total of 6 Tree Levels, then you cannot do it by casting the 4th level spell twice; you're forced to cast a spell of a sufficiently high enough level (but you pay only the ES for the Tree Levels used). This also suggests that Tree Magic effects should be categorized into a small number of effect types that are related to each other, and which each require one casting of the Spell (which is the same spell sub-Realm in all cases, e.g. Enchant Tree I to Enchant Tree IV). Sentience/Speech could be one such category, Aura effects another, Bloodline effects a third. HEalth/Life might be too narrow, but then again if magic fruits are thrown in it would be better. Still, you're doing a fine job, so far, and I'll try my best not to interfere, but do ask if you are unsure about something. --Peter Knutsen (the Designer) 14:30, 7 December 2010 (UTC)
- It was standard business practice. I didn't know your conversion factors. Now I will be obviosuly using the ones you gave me. I've just started putting in the most obvious stuff. It will probably take me some time, both because I'm not very used to wiki and because I keep mixing up Sagatafl and OMNIA in my head :) I do think, though, that a specific Advantage/Power/Enhancer/Lore is needed to modify the standard conversion factor of 1 Tree Level = 0.2 Essence (I used this since almost all of your costing schemes were based on multiples of 0.2ES, with picks for EBL and discounted Prepare rituals being the only exceptions). Otherwise it's just pointless to use levels/picks instead of Essence directly. It's not like they're tallied all at once and then some non-linear formula is applied to the total (like in Contacts or House) in order to prevent/encourage excessive choices. They're just used pretty much one at a time, for every Ritual. So the conversion Levels-ES should be either based on the Character's scores (somehow) or be modifiable via Advantages (or both, maybe). - Loki, 7 December 2010.
- Actually, 1 Moon is exactly 28 Days (4 Weeks of 7 Days each), and 1 Year is almost exactly 13 Moons. Where are your figures of 12 and 30 coming from? Also, it's standard nomenclature to capitalize Time Interval terms to make clear they're precise game-mechanical distinctions. Other than that you're doing fine, but do you know how to create new articles? (I agree with separating Aura effects out into its own article, like I suggested you do with Bloodline effects, and since Aura effects will probably be very similar to Domain Magic, I better get my ass in gear and resume working on those articles.)
